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clipka · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 254

DrNo wrote:

(now I am thinking of another idea inspired by all these
discussions)

Done. Go take a look.

Duh. Lotsa things to note:

- The crucifix isn't clear; at first I thought it would be a person seen from the back, hanging over the railings, possibly seasick Razz

- There's a much too strong contrast between items that look astonishingly real (like the books, especially the middle one) and others that look just too much like DrNo's Standard Shaders.

- "Busy-ness" of the shot is quite low for one of your shots; very well balanced, if I'm allowed to make this pun Wink

- That Flying Whatsitsname (which I guess is supposed to represent the Holy Spirit) looks quite... um... "interesting".

- Your image description starts with what seems to be a quote - but from whom?

- Most of the short "Description of how this image was created" seems to me to rather belong into the image description.

- That portrait of a man on the right side to represent the rational is a rather poor choice, given that it happens to be a rather popular frescoe from Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel depicting God (being busy creating sun and moon in this case), and therefore easily associated with the religious.

- I disagree with your association of the emotional with the feminine and the rational with the masculine, as if men couldn't feel a thing or women couldn't think; I guess the difference is probably more in the (in-) ability of connecting (or, in a negative sense, messing up) the emotional and rational.

Interesting concept, at any rate!

DrNo · Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 1070

clipka wrote:

- The crucifix isn't clear; at first I thought it would be a person seen from the back, hanging over the railings, possibly seasick Razz

It has been updated before reading your comments. Other people told
me it wasn't readable enough.

clipka wrote:

- There's a much too strong contrast between items that look astonishingly real (like the books, especially the middle one) and others that look just too much like DrNo's Standard Shaders.

The realism may need a bit of luck.

The books look good and I am also satisfied
with the hammer.

For the rest, I did my best. So my signature
(eye or style) is likely to be recognizable.

clipka wrote:

- "Busy-ness" of the shot is quite low for one of your shots; very well balanced, if I'm allowed to make this pun Wink

Very good one Smile

It may not be obvious when seeing "Edenweiss", but I learned
the importance of simplicity from "Tide of events"...

clipka wrote:

- That Flying Whatsitsname (which I guess is supposed to represent the Holy Spirit) looks quite... um... "interesting".

I wanted to recall the judgement tarot card.

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But I cannot say I am satisfied with it.

clipka wrote:

- Your image description starts with what seems to be a quote - but from whom?

When I want to say something, I first verify on the web
and I often find exactly what I need. The English is good
etc, but I keep the quotes, to be respectful, and mainly
because I don't want people to think I am that good.

It doesn't really matter where it comes from as it is
exactly what I wanted to say word for word. So you
can suppose it comes from me.

I am just lazy.

clipka wrote:

- Most of the short "Description of how this image was created" seems to me to rather belong into the image description.

For me the first box contains the story, and such details would clash
a bit with the elegance of the main text.

clipka wrote:

- That portrait of a man on the right side to represent the rational is a rather poor choice, given that it happens to be a rather popular frescoe from Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel depicting God (being busy creating sun and moon in this case), and therefore easily associated with the religious.

Someone told me it looked too religious at first sight.

My first idea was to use a picture of Darwin, but I changed
my mind later on. Maybe because of the hammer.

This Michelangelo's God looks toward the proper direction, etc.
It was perfect, but it is not too late to do something else.

clipka wrote:

- I disagree with your association of the emotional with the feminine and the rational with the masculine, as if men couldn't feel a thing or women couldn't think; I guess the difference is probably more in the (in-) ability of connecting (or, in a negative sense, messing up) the emotional and rational.

I don't suggest a clear clean cut here, but only general
characteristics or tendency. Feminine is more emotional (inner
feelings) and masculine is more pragmatic (formal reasoning).

But I can remove that aspect easily. It is not important at all.

clipka wrote:

Interesting concept, at any rate!

I hope I made myself clear regarding the use of the word
"evidence" Smile

This idea would have never popped up without our vigorous
discussions about it.

_________________
DrNo

3DSteve · Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 249 Location: UK

Guys, this is another concern of mine. The TC Stills forum is really here for conversation about past images. Or at least, that was my intention for it to be. My problem with critiquing an image while it is presently entered into the challenge is what happens when it's time to vote? What should critique 'A' rate for entrant 'B's' image when it has been honed to perfection before rating has even started? 20-20-20?

It should be down to the entrant to spot mistakes in their image and correct them. If we all had our images 'corrected' beforehand, then we should all be in the high teens for our rating results.

clipka · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 254

3DSteve wrote:

Guys, this is another concern of mine. The TC Stills forum is really here for conversation about past images. Or at least, that was my intention for it to be.

Hmm...

On one hand, I think it's good to have a forum to discuss about comments given by the previous round's voters. (After all, that's precisely why I initially suggested to have a forum.)

On the other hand, that doesn't seem to happen. I find it a bit difficult (for reasons I haven't yet given much thought about) to pick up those comments and sort of carry them into the forum.

And aside from providing a platform to reply to comments - what good does it do to discuss a shot after the competition? It only very rarely happens that someone publishes a re-take of a shot after the deadline. So if we're not discussing a shot now, we most likely will never see immediate fruits of the discussion.

Sounds weird given that this is a competition.

Doesn't sound as weird, I think, when one sees this as a platform to both present, and be presented with, interesting (and ideally amazing) raytracing images; a platform that just happens to also be a competition.

At any rate, discussions about shots of the current round do happen already. If not here in public, then by e-mail among individual members.

If it is done here, it has the advantage that anyone can take part, and benefit from it - including newbies who are not yet acquainted with other entrants.

Just my 2 cents; I see your point, and part of me agrees, but part of me doesn't.

DrNo · Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 1070

3DSteve wrote:

The TC Stills forum is really here for conversation about past images.

Maybe... but we don't actually do it.

I don't feel there is much to say about an image
that cannot be changed.

(for that we have the WIP threads)

3DSteve wrote:

What should critique 'A' rate for entrant 'B's' image when it has been honed to perfection before rating has even started? 20-20-20?

If I, as a voter, would have to rate my own entries, I would not
necessarily give them 20-20-20 (actually never).

Also if 'B' agrees too much with 'A', another voter 'C' would only
feel the shot has been produced by 'A', not by 'B', and won't give
it a perfect score only because of that.

'B' in response to 'A' must be able to say "you are right, it is better
that way" or "I don't agree, I will leave it as it is".

3DSteve wrote:

It should be down to the entrant to spot mistakes in their image and correct them.

I think that, at some point, the author doesn't "see" his own picture,
because he saw it growing throughout the creation process.

A fresh new opinion (first impression) is always very valuable.

3DSteve wrote:

If we all had our images 'corrected' beforehand, then we should all be in the high teens for our rating results.

Why not?

The order (and winners) won't necessarily change because
of that, and only the overall quality of all images would increase.

(when we try to help each other, maybe we agree too much
with you that this is a friendly competition)

_________________
DrNo

DrNo · Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 1070

clipka wrote:

It only very rarely happens that someone publishes a re-take of a shot after the deadline. So if we're not discussing a shot now, we most likely will never see immediate fruits of the discussion.

Thomas did it once with his entry for the contrast
round. I never replied but I would have said that
his new version would have been better enough
to win over my B&W.

clipka wrote:

Sounds weird given that this is a competition.

Think of it as a challenge instead.

Maybe a competition with other means of art expression.

clipka wrote:

Doesn't sound as weird, I think, when one sees this as a platform to both present, and be presented with, interesting (and ideally amazing) raytracing images; a platform that just happens to also be a competition.

Exactly.

clipka wrote:

At any rate, discussions about shots of the current round do happen already. If not here in public, then by e-mail among individual members.

I did that a couple of times (and got to know many other
members).

JuuG is not a member of the forum, but I would like
to tell him what bothers me with his new shot.

Because I would want to see his entry without the things
that annoy me. Reading my comments only after the voting
process won't help him to improve his picture.

(no problem with the concept though, his entry is
interestingly on-topic)

clipka wrote:

Just my 2 cents; I see your point, and part of me agrees, but part of me doesn't.

Strickly speaking, Steve is right.

But some (or most) of us just don't care about winning,
we only want the very best pictures out there.

_________________
DrNo

clipka · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 254

DrNo wrote:

But some (or most) of us just don't care about winning,
we only want the very best pictures out there.

See them, to be precise. Not necessarily produce them ourselves (though that's a nice side effect, too).

And excel at our own shots. Which doesn't mean winning over others, but winning over oneself.

Zekaric · Joined: 06 Nov 2008 Posts: 22 Location: Vancouver

I understand both point of views however I've seen another website (CGTalk) and their competitions and it is actually 'encouraged' to seek advice from your peers in order to improve your picture or animation. In fact I think it may be frowned upon if a participant didn't offer help or encouraging comments on other entrants.

I would find that a boon for anyone considering entering this competition if they were given work in progress critiques or suggestions. We all want to put up the best pictures we can and putting up good pictures will bring up the overall quality of the competition.

Just my opinion. I'm fine with decisions either way.

_________________
- Robbert de Groot (AKA: Zekaric)

3DSteve · Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 249 Location: UK

Zekaric wrote:

I understand both point of views however I've seen another website (CGTalk) and their competitions and it is actually 'encouraged' to seek advice from your peers in order to improve your picture or animation. In fact I think it may be frowned upon if a participant didn't offer help or encouraging comments on other entrants.

I would find that a boon for anyone considering entering this competition if they were given work in progress critiques or suggestions. We all want to put up the best pictures we can and putting up good pictures will bring up the overall quality of the competition.

Just my opinion. I'm fine with decisions either way.

Heh, well that's good to know. Wink

To be honest, I really don't mind, and I hope that I didn't sound as though I did. My main point though, is that WIP images should be posted in the wips forum (which is here now) as the image is being produced and taking form, and not after an image has been uploaded as 'finished'.

I don't know about you guys, but when I try to put an image together, I get some satisfaction trying to outwit your judgements, but I can only know what those judgements are after I've submitted a finished image. I also like my images to hopefully surprise someone.

Anyway, as I said, I really don't mind, so I've changed the forum names and short descriptions of Stills and Animations.

3DSteve · Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 249 Location: UK

[quote="DrNo"]

3DSteve wrote:

If we all had our images 'corrected' beforehand, then we should all be in the high teens for our rating results.

Why not?

Because when you get a low score after your image is, let's say, adjusted by your peers, you're going to feel a little deflated, I think?

clipka · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 254

[quote="3DSteve"]

DrNo wrote:

3DSteve wrote:

If we all had our images 'corrected' beforehand, then we should all be in the high teens for our rating results.

Why not?

Because when you get a low score after your image is, let's say, adjusted by your peers, you're going to feel a little deflated, I think?

So you're saying that we shouldn't discuss our current entries here because our peers might coax us into making them worse?

Seems to me like I somehow fail to get your point. Confused

DrNo · Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 1070

3DSteve wrote:

My main point though, is that WIP images should be posted in the wips forum (which is here now) as the image is being produced and taking form, and not after an image has been uploaded as 'finished'.

Good point. When an image is submitted, it can be rated right away
and people don't usually change their mind later on.

3DSteve wrote:

I don't know about you guys, but when I try to put an image together, I get some satisfaction trying to outwit your judgements, but I can only know what those judgements are after I've submitted a finished image. I also like my images to hopefully surprise someone.

Since one must be a member of the forum to see the
images, posting them here allows for keeping the secret
for most potential voters.

3DSteve wrote:

Anyway, as I said, I really don't mind, so I've changed the forum names and short descriptions of Stills and Animations.

The title looks too specific to WIPs and can be misleading...

Maybe calling it "TINA CHeP Stills (WIP, etc)" would do it...

_________________
DrNo

DrNo · Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 1070

clipka wrote:

So you're saying that we shouldn't discuss our current entries here because our peers might coax us into making them worse?

That's really funny...

(I can't stop laughing at the moment...)

_________________
DrNo

DrNo · Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 1070

Zekaric wrote:

I understand both point of views however I've seen another website (CGTalk) and their competitions and it is actually 'encouraged' to seek advice from your peers in order to improve your picture or animation. In fact I think it may be frowned upon if a participant didn't offer help or encouraging comments on other entrants.

I didn't even know CGTalk. Truly amazing stuff.

(and I am very surprised by your comment, but
I wouldn't go that far of course...)

Zekaric wrote:

I would find that a boon for anyone considering entering this competition if they were given work in progress critiques or suggestions.

At some point, we were able to see the voters' comments and
make some changes accordingly, but it didn't make sense that
early entries had an advantage over late ones.

Besides most voters wait until the last minute to write their
comments (when they do).

_________________
DrNo

3DSteve · Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 249 Location: UK

3DSteve wrote:

Because when you get a low score after your image is, let's say, adjusted by your peers, you're going to feel a little deflated, I think?

clipka wrote:

So you're saying that we shouldn't discuss our current entries here because our peers might coax us into making them worse?

Erm, no, that's not what I said.

clipka wrote:

Seems to me like I somehow fail to get your point. Confused

My point is that if someone wants advice, then that's fine, they can present a WIP (as you have in the WIP models forum) and not enter it as a finished image first. It's partly my fault for not naming the forums too well. Maybe I should create another forum for WIPS and migrate all associated threads over to it, and keep this one and animations as they were?