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ThomdeG · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 382 Location: NL

First, let me state that I did not see the film Beowulf. The ideas I present and show here are my own musings, based on the close reading of the Beofulf Saga itself (translated into modern English, of course).

In the saga, Grendel is presented as the (man-eating) Monster. However, he is never really picturally described as such. Instead, one gets the idea that this is a very angry and very hurt person, taking his revenge on the court of Hrothgar, king of the Danes.

The text says: "At that time, a mighty fiend who lived in darkness suffered greatly. Their [the court banquetting in the hall Heorot] happiness, which he heard daily resounding from the hall, grated on his ear: the harp-music, and clear song of a poet..."

So, my idea is this. Grendel was expulsed from Hrothgard's court after some unmentioned crime. He felt he had been treated wrongly and unjustly, and brooded revenge on the king. The sounds of his former comrades reveling in the great banquetting hall drove him berserk, with the results told in the saga.

I am working on a stately portret of that Grendel, probably made before his "crime". Poser's SimonG2 is the basis for the figure, but I extensively worked on his face and attitude. The sword comes originally from a DAZ prop collection of weaponry. I reworked it however, extensively in Silo, correcting the geometry in particular. I am working now on the clothing (Silo, of course) including chain mail and such. I do not intend to remain fully authentic, so a bit of anachronistic elements may be included at some stage.

This is a sneak preview Smile

Maybe some day Beowulf will be the challenge topic of TC-RTC, then I shall have to make the portret of Beowulf himself... as I see him...

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All the best,

Thomas

"Sic vive, tanquam cras moriturus, sic stude, quasi semper victurus." Desiderius Erasmus

clipka · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 254

ThomdeG wrote:

In the saga, Grendel is presented as the (man-eating) Monster. However, he is never really picturally described as such. Instead, one gets the idea that this is a very angry and very hurt person, taking his revenge on the court of Hrothgar, king of the Danes.

The text says: "At that time, a mighty fiend who lived in darkness suffered greatly. Their [the court banquetting in the hall Heorot] happiness, which he heard daily resounding from the hall, grated on his ear: the harp-music, and clear song of a poet..."

Hm... but he is called a "fiend", so certainly not a human.

ThomdeG · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 382 Location: NL

clipka wrote:

Hm... but he is called a "fiend", so certainly not a human.

It depends on how you interpret "fiend". According to my dictionary, it can also mean a monstrous person (e.g. that child is a real fiend). Do not forget that we read the saga through the eyes of the winners (Hrothgar, Beowulf) so a bit of exageration is to be expected as it increases the renown of their deeds. And exageration was certainly an important component of the skald songs (Celtic, Saxon, Scandinavian).

But then again, I do not pretend to do a historical accurate reconstruction. I interpret, as the listeners of old interpreted probably also, and dreamed away on epic songs.

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All the best,

Thomas

"Sic vive, tanquam cras moriturus, sic stude, quasi semper victurus." Desiderius Erasmus

Stephen · Joined: 03 Nov 2008 Posts: 364

ThomdeG wrote:

clipka wrote:

Hm... but he is called a "fiend", so certainly not a human.

It depends on how you interpret "fiend". According to my dictionary, it can also mean a monstrous person (e.g. that child is a real fiend). Do not forget that we read the saga through the eyes of the winners (Hrothgar, Beowulf) so a bit of exageration is to be expected as it increases the renown of their deeds. And exageration was certainly an important component of the skald songs (Celtic, Saxon, Scandinavian).

But then again, I do not pretend to do a historical accurate reconstruction. I interpret, as the listeners of old interpreted probably also, and dreamed away on epic songs.

I agree with you Thomas, a fiend can be human or a human can be a fiend.

I was confused for a while and read Grendel as Dhalgren a book by Samuel R. Delany.

Nice modelling b.t.w.

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Stephen

3DSteve · Site Admin Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 249 Location: UK

ThomdeG wrote:

This is a sneak preview Smile

I'm loving his expression Thomas, fits the scene well in my opinion. He has fiendish intentions.

ThomdeG wrote:

Maybe some day Beowulf will be the challenge topic of TC-RTC, then I shall have to make the portret of Beowulf himself... as I see him...

Of course, that's what it's all about, self expression through artistic media, and interpretation. Nothing wrong with that Thomas, that is art.

Looking forward to more of this, and yes, Beowulf will be a topic at some point. Smile

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Steve

ThomdeG · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 382 Location: NL

Stephen wrote:

I was confused for a while and read Grendel as Dhalgren a book by Samuel R. Delany.

Nice modelling b.t.w.

Thanks Stephen. Will go further slowly.

Dhalgren... now THAT is a book I want to illustrate!! There are many scenes that just shout for CSG. Good to remind me!

For instance: at the beginning, the woman who changes into a tree...

But also the main character, with his chains...

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All the best,

Thomas

"Sic vive, tanquam cras moriturus, sic stude, quasi semper victurus." Desiderius Erasmus

ThomdeG · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 382 Location: NL

OK. So I rendered the scene three times, with the same settings, in particular identical Display_Gamma in povray.ini, for what it's worth:

1) rendered in Megapov (with radiosity adaptive 1):

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2) rendered in 3.7 beta 32:

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3) rendered in 3.7 beta 32, without the figure:

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I am working on nr 2 of course, but I am certainly puzzled by the difference in the background which I cannot explain....

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All the best,

Thomas

"Sic vive, tanquam cras moriturus, sic stude, quasi semper victurus." Desiderius Erasmus

ThomdeG · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 382 Location: NL

3DSteve wrote:

I'm loving his expression Thomas, fits the scene well in my opinion. He has fiendish intentions.

Thanks Steve. He is a dark and complex character I think. Which is what attracts me to him in the first place. The character of Beowulf is much more bland: the typical nordic hero Smile

3DSteve wrote:

Of course, that's what it's all about, self expression through artistic media, and interpretation. Nothing wrong with that Thomas, that is art.

Looking forward to more of this, and yes, Beowulf will be a topic at some point. Smile

Yes indeed. I certainly do love to project my own interpretation upon a known literary work, especially if it gives me the possibility to sidetrack a bit from convention...

And yes, Beowulf will get there some day. I have been pushing him a bit once in a while... Smile

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All the best,

Thomas

"Sic vive, tanquam cras moriturus, sic stude, quasi semper victurus." Desiderius Erasmus

clipka · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 254

ThomdeG wrote:

OK. So I rendered the scene three times, with the same settings, in particular identical Display_Gamma in povray.ini, for what it's worth:

How about the "assumed_gamma" setting? I gather it is particularly important for handling texture images.

As for the difference in background, I must confess - much to my own dismay - that I have not the slightest idea what's happening there between (2) and (3). I'd expect the background to be darkened near Grendel's back, but not that high up above his head.

ThomdeG · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 382 Location: NL

clipka wrote:

[How about the "assumed_gamma" setting? I gather it is particularly important for handling texture images.

Assumed_gamma is 1 in the megapov scene; commented out in the 3.7 ones.

Quote:

As for the difference in background, I must confess - much to my own dismay - that I have not the slightest idea what's happening there between (2) and (3). I'd expect the background to be darkened near Grendel's back, but not that high up above his head.

Strange isn't it??

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All the best,

Thomas

"Sic vive, tanquam cras moriturus, sic stude, quasi semper victurus." Desiderius Erasmus

clipka · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 254

ThomdeG wrote:

Assumed_gamma is 1 in the megapov scene; commented out in the 3.7 ones.

Try 1.8 or something like that for megapov. I guess it believes the texture files are linear - which they virtually never are with Poser models - and assumed_gamma should fix that (I presume).

Quote:

As for the difference in background, I must confess - much to my own dismay - that I have not the slightest idea what's happening there between (2) and (3). I'd expect the background to be darkened near Grendel's back, but not that high up above his head.

Strange isn't it??[/quote]

One idea: Does the background have a strong large-scale bump map (or similar normal pertubation)?

Sometimes bump maps "bend" the normal in a wrong way (depending on orientation of the "substrate" geometry)

ThomdeG · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 382 Location: NL

clipka wrote:

ThomdeG wrote:

Assumed_gamma is 1 in the megapov scene; commented out in the 3.7 ones.

Try 1.8 or something like that for megapov. I guess it believes the texture files are linear - which they virtually never are with Poser models - and assumed_gamma should fix that (I presume).

Yes, that makes indeed a difference. One thing that makes a huge difference is the use of reflective screens outside the camera view. A couple of them (with ambient 1) were used. This clearly overshines the scene in megapov, but only just clears up the shadows in 3.7. I don't know why this is.

See also the test files below.

Quote:

One idea: Does the background have a strong large-scale bump map (or similar normal pertubation)?

Sometimes bump maps "bend" the normal in a wrong way (depending on orientation of the "substrate" geometry)

No, the background is a height_field made from the corresponding image_map.

I have been testing a bit further. In the following images, I have commented out the background, and also the reflective screens, keeping the hdri map ( hdr map_type 7 in megapov; exr map_type 1 in 3.7) and the two spot lights as illumination.

1) megapov with assumed_gamma 1.0:

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2) megapov with assumed_gamma 2.0:

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3) POV-Ray 3.7 beta 32:

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Note the different projection between map_type 1 and map_type 7.

An assumed_gamma of 2.0 in megapov best approximates the 3.7 results but show some artifacts on the figure's skin. Still, I prefer the 3.7 image, although it could be a bit lighter. I think it clearly shows the improvements of the radiosity code compared to megapov (and 3.6).

Note: looking at the scaled-up version of the 3.7 image here on the site, seems to lighten up the images more... Evil or Very Mad

That makes comparison difficult.

The initial question is not really resolved yet, but maybe some further clues can be derived from these tests...?

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All the best,

Thomas

"Sic vive, tanquam cras moriturus, sic stude, quasi semper victurus." Desiderius Erasmus

clipka · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 254

ThomdeG wrote:

An assumed_gamma of 2.0 in megapov best approximates the 3.7 results but show some artifacts on the figure's skin. Still, I prefer the 3.7 image, although it could be a bit lighter. I think it clearly shows the improvements of the radiosity code compared to megapov (and 3.6).

Me as the one who implemented those changes, I'm rather uneasy about it: There shouldn't be any radiosity-induced difference. Except for some artifacts removed, that is.

What happens when you turn off radiosity altogether?

Quote:

Note: looking at the scaled-up version of the 3.7 image here on the site, seems to lighten up the images more... Evil or Very Mad

That makes comparison difficult.

Yes, I'm noticing that, too.

At the moment, I suspect the difference to be in the gamma handling alone.

Notice that as you use PNG, there is also gamma information embedded into the file, which is respected by some software (e.g. Internet Explorer when displaying the original full-size image), but not others (e.g. possibly the software creating the "thumbnails" in this forum).

How about a JPG version of the shots?

DrNo · Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 467

clipka wrote:

Notice that as you use PNG, there is also gamma information embedded into the file, which is respected by some software.

That could explain why the "POV-Ray 3.7 beta 32" version
in full window doesn't look the same as its thumbnail.
Which should be the right one?

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ThomdeG · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 382 Location: NL

clipka wrote:

How about a JPG version of the shots?

You are right. Stupid of me not have thought about the png keeping gamma info. Here are the jpg versions:

Megapov assumed_gamma 1.0:

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Megapov assumed_gamma 2.0:

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Version 3.7 beta 32:

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And a series with radiosity switched off:
Megapov assumed_gamma 1.0:

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Megapov assumed_gamma 2.0:

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Version 3.7 beta 32:

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All the best,

Thomas

"Sic vive, tanquam cras moriturus, sic stude, quasi semper victurus." Desiderius Erasmus